125 ex class

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125 ex class

Post  Woodworths on Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:35 pm

The 250F and 250 2strk controversy seems to be a big thing in Alaska and I will try to clear some things up. Both AMA and NMA allow the 250 2strk in the amateur lites or 250 classes and there is talk about AMA letting it in the pro. The tests that were done were done in Southern Cali (very hard pack) and the both bikes are pretty equal on that type of track. A true super cross track the 250F is a little better. The 250 2strk has problems with wheel spin on those types of tracks. Now change the track to loamy loose and the outcome is totally different. I use to think on a loose track like the Kenai track the 250F would be better but I was wrong!! Cody has been testing in southern California and Texas and his lap times are 2-4 seconds a lap faster on the 250 2strk than the 250F on the loamy tracks like in Texas and about the same on the hard pack tracks in Cali. He just spent the past week testing on two different super cross tracks and the Lap times just don’t lie. Both OakHill and Whitney are AMA amateur races and they did not allow 250 2strks to race in the Lites class, they are both in Texas and both have loamy tracks. Now in Alaska the 250 2strk will clean clock on the 250F because of the tracks we have here. I personally don’t think the 250 2strk should be allowed to run against the 250F’s in Alaska. (I also don’t think a big wheel 85 should be in the 85 class either, that’s not allowed anywhere except in a supermini class). Now there are some kids in the 125 ex class that are mid pack riders and it doesn’t really matter what one they are on but take a couple fast guys and the guy on the 250 2strk will win over the 250F every time and they know it or they would be on a 250F. Cody raced this past summer in Anchorage in the 125ex class on his 250 2strk and when he was done he told me it was like cheating. Now here is the issue, we got the kid that likes to ride 2 strks and dad can work on it and it doesn’t cost a month’s wages to repair. Where does he fit in? 125 2strk against 250F?? That’s a melt down and a cry fest waiting to happen. A 250 2strk against 450F?? Ya right! Another cry fest! Both AMA and NMA have separate 2 stroke classes in amateur, a 125 and a 250. Maybe that is what has to happen in Alaska. One thing you have to look at is AMA and NMA have changed the names of the classes. It’s not 125 in AMA it’s the Lites class and there are no pro’s riding 125’s they are all on 250F’s. Now to play devils advocate I remember a few years back when a little kid on a big wheel 85/112 super mini got almost every hole shot and won almost every race against 125’s and 250F’s so a lot has to do with the rider, training, who rides the most, who is more physically fit, who wants it the most ect. Anyways there is my two cents worth on the subject.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  J Muller on Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:51 pm

Very well put Mr. Woodworth. I guess this should answer any questions about letting the 250 2stk race against the 250fs in alaska. We don't
even need to vote on it. { Cody told his dad it was like cheating! } How many of us are going to question the woodworths judgemet and say they are wrong
they don't know what ther taking about!


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Re: 125 ex class

Post  akpilot7 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:39 am

Yes, but allowing 250F's to race in the "125" class is worse than cheating! The only person I saw who could actually hang with the 250f's on a 125 was Cody a few years ago. Even he had to really make that bike sing to have a chance. (and I don't think his machine was stock) The 125 class was the funnest class, now it is no more. It has been replaced by the 250 class. So let 250cc machines compete against each other. Equal cc = Equal classes. It is a sad day when people can say with a straight face that equal isn't fair. If you think the 2-stroke is a better bike, well then race on one! Oh, and while we are at it, let's bring back a REAL 125 class.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  OneSeven on Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:43 pm

akpilot7 wrote:Yes, but allowing 250F's to race in the "125" class is worse than cheating! The only person I saw who could actually hang with the 250f's on a 125 was Cody a few years ago. Even he had to really make that bike sing to have a chance. (and I don't think his machine was stock) The 125 class was the funnest class, now it is no more. It has been replaced by the 250 class. So let 250cc machines compete against each other. Equal cc = Equal classes. It is a sad day when people can say with a straight face that equal isn't fair. If you think the 2-stroke is a better bike, well then race on one! Oh, and while we are at it, let's bring back a REAL 125 class.

I don't know when you showed up on the racing scene, but I have seen plenty of 125's or 125's with some upgrades do just fine in the Expert classes in the years having raced against quite a few pilots of those bikes and getting into the expert class right as they died out. Honestly the dramatic difference you guys claim between the two motors are really out the window.

The 125 makes more HP then the 250f, I'm not taking away the fact the by torque the 250f does have the advantage but to say a 125 cant be competitive is stupid. The reason they died out is cause the factories pushed all the technology into 4strokes and made them the bike to buy and ride. That is why one two factories are still even selling the bikes in the USA. (Yamaha and KTM)

Faster, easier to ride to full potential, less bike work. Is what the factories pushed on four strokes. Honestly, I dont want spend my money racing and be rebuilding the top end every other weekend. Not because I'm having to keep up with 4strokes, simply because riding at "Expert" level pace requires a lot of work to keep those things running. Say what you want an deny it all you want, my family has rarely ever had to rebuild a motor or do valves on our bikes. In fact we would race a whole summer with out checking our valves once and the only time I ever remember a 4stroke motor going on us once is when a freak accident happened and the Fly Wheel came off.

With a proper maintenance a 4stroke is a dream. To also say the 4stroke is killing the racing up here is another far off thing to say. All the old greats who choose not to race anymore are simply tired of not being paid back enough in pay backs, tired of the cost of traveling with prices to high, tired of not being heard simply when it comes to riding these tracks around here. its great that all the 125 novice riders can make the jumps and its safe for them, whats not great is how the top riders have no challenge around these tracks and its wide open all the time. I dont know about you but hitting the ground wide open hurts quite a bit and is very unsfafe.

The goon shouldn't come first the expert riders should. Its a shame theres only 4-5 true ones still around.

Oh here are some dynocharts. Tell me what seems more unfair a 250 2 stroke vs 250f or 250f vs 125

250 2 stroke.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  akpilot7 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:43 am

Your graph is from 2002. If a new 250f made that kind of power it would be found in the dumpster. Even based on this very old graph, you can see that the 250f makes alot more (and broader) power than a 125. The only way to compete on a 125 is to be right on the bubble using alot of shifting and clutch work. The same rider will always have faster lap times on a 250F than a 125. The 250f torque advantage is just huge over the 125. It should be, it is TWICE the size motor.

You claim that the 4stroke is a "dream" bike. Well good for you: Prove it by racing a 2stroke of the same size. This crazy idea that we must have a handicap for the 4-strokes is insane. I should get a handicap and get to jump the gate every race because I'm old and so is my bike. After all, that would make it fair right? Give me enough of a handicap, and I could start to win the pro class! The 125 vs 250f is such a handicap that very few can win on a 125.

You can complain about small jumps and goons all you like, it doesn't make me feel any worse about myself. I know I'm a goon, but this goon will quit racing before I am forced to ride a 4stroke. My wife wants me to quit anyways. lol

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  OneSeven on Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:26 am

I didn't know that ever year a bike is around the HP goes up in that bike every year.
Here is a dyno from 2010...what do you know the bikes are just as fast maybe a little slower or faster. who know.s



Heres 2005 125 Dyno chart to just for fun.




Funny, They dont seem that unfair to me. Unfair yes but the right rider would be just fine.

I dont know where you get your logic on HP. But the 4strokes are not becoming more poweful cause they are getting massive gains in HP every year. . In fact its not uncommon for fourstrokes to lose HP.
These bikes are getting more technology into their handling and weight. The 02' is more powerful but it handles awful, compared to this 07' that is "Slower" but handles better. The focus on the bike isn't the power the motor puts out, its how the rider can handle the bike IE how it handles, how it distributes the power going through the gears.

I guess though my 02 wouldn't stand a chance in a drag race against my 09 though....put it in the dumpster. Trash.

I also thought thats how you rode a 125, lots of shifting and using the clutch to keep and carry power? Least thats how I ride them, thats how I've rode any 2stroke in my life.

Riddle me this. I for one can run faster laptimes on a 250 2stroke then a 450. I can actually do this for a whole moto, I get less tired riding the lighter better handling bike. How is it fair that I can ride a bike that I can ride better then a 450 in a 125 or "250f" class?

Lets compare the 250 2stroke to the 450f.
450:



250:




Funny still doesn't seem that unfair to me. Once again, the right rider be just fine more then fine. Actually.

Weird...they seem to be more similar then a 250f vs a 250 2stroke just like a 125 is more similar to a 250f. Whys that? Oh yeah cause they were created to replace the 125 and 450.
But its fair to race a bike that puts out the same HP almost as a 450 agasint a 250f.

I mean specially in Alaska where the tracks are just wide open everywhere.

Lets look at the 250 2stroke and 4 stroke dyno together and see if there still more fair.

250 2stroke


250 4stroke


Hmmmm.........That doesnt seem to fair to me. A bike that completely blows the other one out of the water, not slightly but completely blows the other one out of the water.


(for your note I did race a 250 2stroke in 09' in the 125 class instead of a 250f)

Im not calling you a goon, I have no idea who you are. I took a season and a half off after some shoulder surgery so if your a new comer I really have no idea who you are.

The fact is with the tracks is that they are simply "To Safe" for expert riders. I am willing to bet that if we look at how many injuries we had from 02-05 when tracks actaully had jumps that not every expert rider would do cause it scared them, when people could actually seperate from each other on a race track cause of the difficulty the track provided. That the injury rate then and now hasn't changed much if any.


Lets also look at how many riders showed up to race expert classes now and then.

The clubs are to focus on what these mini moms and novice riders want that they forget to listen to the people who have been around and actually know their Censored when it comes to how a track should be. You should only hit 4th gear wide open in maybe one or two parts of a track. Instead expert riders are riding 4th gear wide open every where and cornering in 3rd. Its not safe. The club has to start thinking of the safety of expert riders, I dont care if you add more corners to slow us down but you need to do something. If we crash at our speed our chance of a serious injury is much worse the nervous Timmy coming up short and bouncing to a nice slow fall to the ground.

Its sad we cant even have a whoop section anymore, we cant have ruts and kickers on faces of jumps. Ruts in corners. (Quads can take all of the blame for no ruts, But im sure if we had them a dozer would be out to fix them). Instead we got a on lined track thats all berms thats wide open that i can do every jump on the track in 2nd gear. Its not just the ARL club its every club, fairbanks track has became such a Censored show its disgusting. That track use to be a prized track now its just like the rest.

Add corners, add options, for example "Baileys leap" in Kenai those years was a perfect example. Only handful of riders were doing it. Then it got shortened so more riders can do it, eventually it was made to easy and to safe and more under experienced riders started doing it, crashing which led to it being took out.

The road leap in fairbanks was a prime example. Just add options. Add a double double that if some expert rider had enough balls could quad. We had a jump like that in 06 in Anchorage when my brother started doing it. Guess what no novice or intermediate riders touched it. Only a few expert riders even tried it but it was there.

Options. Novice riders and Intermediates know there limits, they know if they see something they shouldn't be able to do it right then and there. If they do try it, let them learn but im willing to bet they wont. especially if doing it involves some technique to it besides just holding it wide open up a huge Censored lip like every jump here has. Options. Adding more corners, S turns, off camber, ect.

Another good example of a option is the finish line leap in Fairbanks in 06? I Didn't see one novice rider doing it or even thinking of trying. The only Intermediates I saw doing it was Casey Boylan, Myself, and Nick Axhelm who were in a class of our own then.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  akpilot7 on Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:17 am

We all know that peak hp doesn't win races, and motocross isn't drag racing. The 250f tromps a 125 because of the torque advantage, and the breadth of the power. A 125 has to be very "peaky" to make 30+ hp. That makes it very hard to ride fast compared to the 250f. I don't know anyone who turns faster laps on a 125. Just about anyone can jump from a 125 to a 250f, and make faster, more consistent, laps. How is that fair? There is a reason not a single pro is on a 125. Not everyone can jump from a 250f to a 250, and make faster laps. That seems more fair to me. Besides, if the 2-stroke has an advantage in the 250 class, it is at a dis-advantage in the 450 class. So that evens it out for everyone.

Jumps, track design and quads blowing out the lines is a whole nother conversation, so don't even get me started! lol

What it breaks down to for me is this:

Question: Is the 4-stroke an inferior engine for racing motocross?

If Yes: Why do we want rules that handicap so badly that everyone is forced to ride an inferior machine?

If No: Why do we not want rules that are fair, ie. equal displacement.

Could someone please answer this for me??

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  elancohen92 on Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:35 am

If there was a "Like" button on this forum, Stevie has my vote. haha

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  OneSeven on Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:44 am

akpilot7 wrote:We all know that peak hp doesn't win races, and motocross isn't drag racing. The 250f tromps a 125 because of the torque advantage, and the breadth of the power. A 125 has to be very "peaky" to make 30+ hp. That makes it very hard to ride fast compared to the 250f. I don't know anyone who turns faster laps on a 125. Just about anyone can jump from a 125 to a 250f, and make faster, more consistent, laps. How is that fair? There is a reason not a single pro is on a 125. Not everyone can jump from a 250f to a 250, and make faster laps. That seems more fair to me. Besides, if the 2-stroke has an advantage in the 250 class, it is at a dis-advantage in the 450 class. So that evens it out for everyone.

Jumps, track design and quads blowing out the lines is a whole nother conversation, so don't even get me started! lol

What it breaks down to for me is this:

Question: Is the 4-stroke an inferior engine for racing motocross?

If Yes: Why do we want rules that handicap so badly that everyone is forced to ride an inferior machine?

If No: Why do we not want rules that are fair, ie. equal displacement.

Could someone please answer this for me??

Ill answer em in my own opinions. As everything on here is based opinion.

Is the 4-stroke an inferior engine for racing motocross?
This is a good question.
We all know that a 125 4stroke such as a TTR or DR-Z would get smoked.
But really look at all the technology gone into them...... Those bikes are the bare minmum and have never truly been developed. So in that spin Yes.

But
Throw another 125cc into it though, you create a bike with similar horsepower and top speed. With even a similar curve in power. (View the Dyno)

Really for the displacement of these bikes, dont blame the people riding them. Blame the factories tell them. The Factories reached a point in 2stroke technology where it seemed pointless to go on when you already mastered a technology. So what do they do? They turn back to a old technology never developed to its potential. For example the 4stroke. Look how far they have took the bikes from 02-10. Look at whats happening to them now with EFI and all that jazz. My point is with the displacement is the factories rule racing. They built a new bike and they wanted it placed in the class they built it to replace. (250f was built to replace 125, 450f to replace 250)

That is why no riders ride twostrokes in the Pros. They are force to be put on them because thats what the factories want to sell. That is what the factories are putting their money into. The factories decide everything. Also a huge problem with 2strokes in the pros got to be the led law problem which pushed factories away from the issue.

Why do we not want fair displacement? We'd be once in the same boat we are now. Not everyone rides a fourstroke just because of the power. I love them because there power isnt snappy and abrupt. I just have more fun riding a 250f then a 2stroke overall.

But riding a fourstroke 125 would be twice-three times the disadvantage as riding a 2stroke 125. (A TTR 125 put outs 10-9 HP) But a 250 4stroke and 125 2stroke puts out the same HP and the same power curve as a 125. (not the same exactly as we know the torque plays a factor off the line as the dyno charts show)

In my opinion the displacement is fair,CC's dont say it but the charts say its just about fair and fair as its gonna get. If you put a 250F against a 250 2stroke its no where close as the disadvantage the 125 2stroke faces against the 250f. Honestly if you wanna "rid" the disadvantage make the 125s 144's that will do more then the trick. KTM sells em stock and they are great machines.

Heres a Dyno chart for a 125, 144, 250f (Dont say it has a pipe silencer on it, who doesnt have them on a 125 they dont factor much a difference anyways in the overall)




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Re: 125 ex class

Post  akpilot7 on Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:22 pm

Sooo..... you are saying the 4-stroke is inferior, but we should all race them because that is what the factories want?

Are we willing to be led by the nose? I agree that the factories want us riding 4-strokes, but why? Don't you think they crunched the numbers before deciding this strategy? They make more money on the 4-stroke bikes, that is why they want to sell them. This comes right out of the pockets of you and I. The 4-strokes have alot of technology thrown at an inferior design. I hear people say all the time "get with the times man, get a 4-stroke, they are much more advanced". These are the same people who cry about Equal classes. Well, I like the 2-stroke because if follows the K.I.S.S. rule. They don't need, exotic metals, hot start buttons, efi, sensors, fuel pumps, cams, valves, slipper clutches, electric start, starting drills, etc. They just work! I say F*** the factories, lets have equal classes.

Now as for the dyno charts you posted. Again the 150 makes more hp than a 250f, but only for a tiny 2000 rpm. Unless you can ride the bike in this bubble, you are at a disadvantage. TWMX just did a review of the 150sx. They only had 2 complaints. One of them was that it didn't make as much power as a 250f!

Also, the AMA finally has seen the light, and allowed equal displacement in the amateurs. At Lorettas it was still mostly 250F's winning the races. So how unfair could equal classes be?

Also, there is still the 450 class where 4 strokes are still the best option. 4-stroke riders basically have this class all to themselves.

We are doing a huge dis-service to the sport by actively killing the 2-stroke. There are many negatives to killing the 2-stroke, and no positives. The death of the 125 class is a tragedy for us all (especially the kids moving up from 85's) We are only hurting ourselves with handicap rules.


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125 Expert

Post  Jim Stewart on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:48 am

I'd like to just toss something out there for you guys to think about this winter. First off, I realize I don't race seriously like many of you, but I did at one time, so I do still have an understanding of what it's all about. I think that at least part of why the engine size is such a controversy has to do with track design and maintenance. There was a time when we laid out a course that had more "interesting" obstacles and was allowed to get quite rough. We would often go three weeks or more without grooming the track, allowing it to get rough and nasty. The track was more of an outdoor style rather than an outdoor "supercross" style and rider skill, suspension setup, and fitness played a far greater part of a rider's result than horsepower or engine size did. Oftentimes the 125s were the fastest bikes on the track and line choice and imagination had a bigger impact than torque curves or peak h.p. readings. I know the sport in general has moved away from that a bit, but if you watch the outdoor nationals I think you'll see that those tracks have been allowed to get rougher and are not groomed between motos as they were a couple years ago, and as is quite often done at Kincaid and around Alaska. I'm going to go "old guy" for just a bit and remind you that in the days when the track at Kincaid was allowed to get rough, we were also riding with conventional forks, steel frames, and shocks with a body that was barely bigger than the shock rod on today's bikes. I'm pretty sure you'd find if we went back to that style of track the whole issue of engine size and type would become virtually meaningless. A side note to this is that we also found in years past as the track got rougher and slower, the incidence of serious injuries dropped dramatically. If this approach sounds at all interesting to any of you and you have any questions, I will do my best to give you an answer. Jim Stewart

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  OneSeven on Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:08 am

Jim Stewart wrote:I'd like to just toss something out there for you guys to think about this winter. First off, I realize I don't race seriously like many of you, but I did at one time, so I do still have an understanding of what it's all about. I think that at least part of why the engine size is such a controversy has to do with track design and maintenance. There was a time when we laid out a course that had more "interesting" obstacles and was allowed to get quite rough. We would often go three weeks or more without grooming the track, allowing it to get rough and nasty. The track was more of an outdoor style rather than an outdoor "supercross" style and rider skill, suspension setup, and fitness played a far greater part of a rider's result than horsepower or engine size did. Oftentimes the 125s were the fastest bikes on the track and line choice and imagination had a bigger impact than torque curves or peak h.p. readings. I know the sport in general has moved away from that a bit, but if you watch the outdoor nationals I think you'll see that those tracks have been allowed to get rougher and are not groomed between motos as they were a couple years ago, and as is quite often done at Kincaid and around Alaska. I'm going to go "old guy" for just a bit and remind you that in the days when the track at Kincaid was allowed to get rough, we were also riding with conventional forks, steel frames, and shocks with a body that was barely bigger than the shock rod on today's bikes. I'm pretty sure you'd find if we went back to that style of track the whole issue of engine size and type would become virtually meaningless. A side note to this is that we also found in years past as the track got rougher and slower, the incidence of serious injuries dropped dramatically. If this approach sounds at all interesting to any of you and you have any questions, I will do my best to give you an answer. Jim Stewart


Sounds like a dream to me.
A real motocross type track!
Just like I see in all the old movies with Danny Magoo Chandler, Micky Dymond, Brad Lackey, Brock Glover, Oshow, Shmit,Tripes.
For those of you who want a idea of what gym is talking about compared to new age tracks check out youtube and just search those names.
Actually I've heard quite a few tracks are going back to the sort of old style track building techniques of those days, making more of "obstacles" then jumps. More hills, technical corners, jumps here and there but yeah.

Hope to see you at Rival Jim!

-Steven

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  akpilot7 on Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:48 pm

I agree with this! I would love an "old school" track as opposed to the supercross style where the novice class riders are jumping everything.
Only 1 problem: quads
We will never see a proper track with footpeg deep ruts or nice berms with multiple lines. What we have is "two track" quad ruts and corners blown out by quads making sliding flat-track style turns. We have the same problem in the skiing world. We used to have nice mogul lines because skis carve turns. Now mogul lines are horrible because snow boards slide more than carve and the results are much different.
I know quads want to race too, but maybe they could race in the afternoon, and bikes in the morning. I know, selfish of me, but those are just the facts as I see them.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  nornevrder on Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:40 pm

Youtube Honey Lake. Or check out honeylakemx.com . The track literally has 4 jumps the rest is off cambers up hills down hills and rough as hell. The up hill is insane and you can click 4th or 5th going up it. That track is my favorite track. It is old school mx at its finest. The challenge is the track itself not how big the jumps are. I have raced a quite a few tracks in Nevada and California North and South. Coming up here to Ak this last year and seeing the scene here was a huge disappointment. From how much it is to get a card to the condition Kincaid is on race day to how little there is places to just go ride aswell as the lack there are of tracks. Then to see a 250 2 smoke in a 250f class about blew me away. I feel for Tyler riding a smaller bike and riding the Censored out of it just to try to keep up with a much faster bike and from what I have heard and just listening to it Casey's 2 smoke is far from stock which makes that much more of a advantage on the smoker. Oh well I guess the politics here in the smaller racing committee will prevail over plain common sense of racing motocross on a motocross track. Oh yeah OneSeven I agree with you 100% good shiat mang

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  akpilot7 on Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:48 pm

Then to see a 250f in a 125 class about blew me away. I feel for Tyler riding a smaller bike and riding the Censored out of it just to try to keep up with a much faster bike and from what I have heard and just listening to it Casey's 4-stroke is far from stock which makes that much more of a advantage on the thumper. Oh well I guess the politics here in the smaller racing committee will prevail over plain common sense of racing motocross on a motocross track.

There, I fixed it for you. tongue

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  nornevrder on Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:53 pm

I really dont get you Ak. It is plain as day that the 2smoke is a faster bike then the lil f. I am not going to argue though. I have been doing this for quite awhile now and have raced all four sizes. Never once have I thought racing a 250 smoke in the little bike class. That would be like racing a 125 smoke against a 150f. There is no comparison.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  akpilot7 on Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:59 am

That is a nice vid of DeCotis ripping it up on a 125. But you will notice that when DeCotis is racing, he is on a 250f. Hmmm, wonder why that is? Well, because he knows that the 125 gets pulled by the 250f.

The 125 is dead. Killed by handicap rules. Forget them unless you want to start a true 125 class again. All we have is the 250. If the 250 smoker has an advantage in the 250 class, it has a disadvantage in the 450 class. I would say that evens it up for both sides as there is no 450 2-stroke.

Do you actually think that a 125 vs. 250F is fair?

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  boylan racing on Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:00 am


nornevrder,
Do you know Casey personally? Did you get to witness Roger changing pistons on the 2 smoker?


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Re: 125 ex class

Post  OneSeven on Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:24 am

akpilot7 wrote:That is a nice vid of DeCotis ripping it up on a 125. But you will notice that when DeCotis is racing, he is on a 250f. Hmmm, wonder why that is? Well, because he knows that the 125 gets pulled by the 250f.

The 125 is dead. Killed by handicap rules. Forget them unless you want to start a true 125 class again. All we have is the 250. If the 250 smoker has an advantage in the 250 class, it has a disadvantage in the 450 class. I would say that evens it up for both sides as there is no 450 2-stroke.

Do you actually think that a 125 vs. 250F is fair?

The handicap you speak of is not that big.
DECOSTIS has been on satalite and small support teams his whole pro career. Meaning he will ride the bikes given to him he has no choice.
The reason you do not see 125s and 250s in the pros is not because of this hanicap.
1. The factories push whatever bikes they want to sell.
2. 2strokes on a pro racing level go through a lot of parts and top ends. Very expensive to keep upkeep, specially if they are modded out to no end. A lot of man hours have to be put in to them, its hard to drive from national to national while wrenching on a bike. 4strokes on the other hand have motors that will last longer and require less work, they are more expensive to buy and when they do go, they really go and its a big check to fix them. Point is for the common needs they are the best choice/

NUMBER THREE WHICH IS THE BIGGEST REASON
There is a LEAD Law in fuel that kills 2strokes.
If you remember towards the end of the 2stroke era in the pros there was a lot of lead testing and a lot of teams being fined and riders being docked.
This is the biggest reason you don't see riders racing these bikes besides the factories pushing 4strokes cause that is what they are making and selling.

This handicap you speak of isn't really the big deal behind the 2strokes.
But it is what most of you 2-strokers for life seem to cling too.
But in the pros its the factories and the led law.
A 250 2stroke is a deadly weapon in supercross but the lead law makes it impossible for them to race without problem specially if they have work done to them.

So Yes, if you would of read my post the Ruling of a 250F VS a 125 is fair as its gonna get. The bikes are more similar then anyone gives them credit for. A 250F against a 250 is way more unfair and once again my previous post explains why .

Cody Woodworth seems to be just fine in Cali on a 125 (could be 144 but dont matter)

CODY WOODWORTH takes 2nd overall at the Amateur National at Pala.

Woodworth riding his 125 2 stroke took second overall at Pala raceway in the 250f class with 8 pros on the line.

I believe cody has actually won 3 weekends in a row after this now.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  OneSeven on Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:44 am

boylan racing wrote:
nornevrder,
Do you know Casey personally? Did you get to witness Roger changing pistons on the 2 smoker?


Whether that bike is modded or not does not matter.
Its within the rule books.
No matter how unfair they are.
I personally am pumped on Casey.
We had so many good battles coming up.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  elancohen92 on Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:43 am

akpilot7 wrote:Then to see a 250f in a 125 class about blew me away. I feel for Tyler riding a smaller bike and riding the Censored out of it just to try to keep up with a much faster bike and from what I have heard and just listening to it Casey's 4-stroke is far from stock which makes that much more of a advantage on the thumper. Oh well I guess the politics here in the smaller racing committee will prevail over plain common sense of racing motocross on a motocross track.

There, I fixed it for you. tongue
You sir, are a tool.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  akpilot7 on Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:15 am

elancohen92 wrote:
You sir, are a tool.

I took what nornevrdr said and changed 250 to 250f, and 250f to 125 to prove a point. What is so wrong with that?

Have we resorted to name calling?

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  OneSeven on Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:29 am

akpilot7 wrote:
elancohen92 wrote:
You sir, are a tool.

I took what nornevrdr said and changed 250 to 250f, and 250f to 125 to prove a point. What is so wrong with that?

Have we resorted to name calling?


I agree not cool.
But would care to hear what you have to say on my reply if anything.
I know this topic is beating a dead horse and we can go on for years.
Just curious haha.

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Re: 125 ex class

Post  akpilot7 on Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:47 pm

oneseven.

Your first point is that factories want to sell 4-strokes. This is true. They have crunched some numbers, and figured out they can make more money on them. How? Planned Obsolescence. There is no doubt they use this strategy. Since the 4-stroke rebuild cost is much higher and more difficult for the garage mechanic, planned obsolescence is easier. All this trickery cost you and I.

Second you state that 2-strokes cost race team too much money in maintenance. This is not true at all! I had an article somewhere where Mitch Payton was asked this question. He stated that his team is spending something like 4 times the money on the 4-stroke engines. Why? well they have alot more moving parts, and these parts move very fast and have very tight tolerances and use expensive materials. Since a race bike at that level gets a complete teardown every race anyway, the cost curve is much higher for the more complex machine.

Third was the lead rule. Yes this really hurt the 2-stroke. Since 2-strokes were still competing at the time, they passed this rule just to get rid of them. They knew that this rule would cause the teams to de-tune the bikes, thus giving the 4-strokes an even bigger advantage. This stuff doesn't happen by accident. It is all about the $$$ (see point #1)

I am a 2-stroker for life as you call it. It is the better machine for motocross. It is cheaper, lighter, simpler, easy to work on, and just more fun. The factories push us into 4-strokes, but they don't have our best interests at heart. They see a cash cow.

I also don't have the mindset that we must have rules that handicap to have equal results. Why not have rules that are equal, and let the results fall where they may? What can be more fair than saying, take the bore & stroke and find the volume. This volume is what you have to work with. Let's set that volume at 250cc. Ok, now everyone find the best bike for you that has that size combustion chamber and let's race.

Like I stated earlier, most have chosen the 4-stroke for Loretta's this year, even though they could ride a 2-stroke of the same size. almost all the titles were won by 4-strokes, so how unfair could the equal class rules be? Obvously the handicap rules are unfair, otherwise 90% of riders wouldn't be on 4-strokes as they are now.

I really do want what is best for the sport. This forced march to 4-strokes will come back to haunt us. There are going to be too many poor kids who bought a second hand 4-stroke, then end up parking the bike in the back yard when the cost to fix it is more than the bike is worth (planned obsolescence). That is one less kid at the track.


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Re: 125 ex class

Post  nornevrder on Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:32 pm

Dear Mrs. Boylan -Hawkins me not knowing Casey and not witnessing Roger changing pistons in between motos is irrelevant to this discussion of if the 2smoke is a cheater bike in the little F class.

Dear Mr. Akpilot it seems we are veering off the point of if it is fair for a faster 2smoke originally raced in the premier class to drop down and race the out powered lil F.

As far as Casey winning good for him I would just like to see both of them line up on little F's and throw it down. Well since the rule book in my opinion is flawed in this topic I guess we will not see it cause one rider rides a manufacturer that still makes them and one that doesn't

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Re: 125 ex class

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